Blu-Ray or HD-DVD - Page 3

species8472 · #21 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mischa316

I"ll try that in a few weeks after I get back from my Vacation. Actually I perfer the Blu Ray over my HD player since I have an A1 god it is slow as hell. I could have my ps3 on and the movie loaded before the tray even comes out on my HD player!! The only 3 I'm going to have on HD that are dual format is 300, We Were Soldiers & Enter the Dragon. We Were Soldiers & Enter the Dragon I had on my HD since the PS3 was not out yet.

Mischa.

300 was going to be a good test but then WB decided to use VC-1 on the Blu-Ray version therefore they should be identical (unless someone screws up the encoding). Once you compare, share your thoughts?

species8472 · #22 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croweyes1121

species8472: Please head over to hidefdigest.com and read some HD DVD reviews. They list the codec right underneath the disc art. There are plenty of HD DVDs that do not use VC-1. As I said, do some research. Just because you "don't recall" any that didn't use it, doesn't mean some don't.

Well, you didn't say that. You said they had no interactive features at all. You didn't say they had no interactive features accessible during the film. Those are two different things. I don't consider a feature to be non-interactive just because the movie isn't playing while I use it. Interactivity is the interface with the feature itself, not it's ability to be accessed while watching the film.

Based on what? You're biased too, just the other direction. Does that make you incorrect?

Fair enough. But don't make a blanket statement, then, that HD DVD is better because it uses VC-1 and VC-1 is better. Since BOTH formats use that codec depending on which title (and BOTH formats also DON'T use that codec depending on which title), one has nothing to do with the other.

I never said the old one looked good. Or that the remaster's superiority was a surprise. I just used it as an example of how MPEG-4 can, in some cases, look better than VC-1, depending which two titles are being compared.

Agreed. For the record, I have never had a high-end computer monitor, so I have nothing to compare my MPEG-4 HD experience with. I'm basing my preference for it over VC-1 based exclusively on the HD software I have watched on my HDTV.

I checked their review database (you are right, I forgot a few) and the large majority are all VC-1 (sorry I cannot check them all) - as we all know. Black Moan is MPEG4 AVC (for example), I forgot that, my bad.. They have Clerks 2 listed as AVC too but I am sure that it is VC-1. I never did a review for that one (as I am the only here to do disc reviews) but I will check the disk when I get home tonight.

Software Playback is decent but not great. There is a big difference between software and hardware playback as dedicated SoC (System on a Chip) perform much better. Software suffers from a lot of noise and hues suff as well. Also, the more powerful machine you have the better the output. I will post a software vs hardware review soon featuring PowerDVD.

In fact at CES I got LG cheating by comparing Blu-Ray hardware playback to HD-DVD software playback (using the same content) while promoting their Dual Format Player.

They tried to pass it off as hardware for both.

L8

mischa316 · #23 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by species8472

300 was going to be a good test but then WB decided to use VC-1 on the Blu-Ray version therefore they should be identical (unless someone screws up the encoding). Once you compare, share your thoughts?

Maybe the Blockbuster by me will have the Blu Ray of 300 and then I"ll get that version and We Were Soldiers and compare those 2!! I'll post back once I'm done with the 2.

Mischa.

species8472 · #24 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mischa316

Maybe the Blockbuster by me will have the Blu Ray of 300 and then I"ll get that version and We Were Soldiers and compare those 2!! I'll post back once I'm done with the 2.

Mischa.

Cool.. Let us know your thoughts.

species8472 · #25 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mischa316

Maybe the Blockbuster by me will have the Blu Ray of 300 and then I"ll get that version and We Were Soldiers and compare those 2!! I'll post back once I'm done with the 2.

Mischa.

BTW: I see you purchase a crap load of movies like me (games too), NICE!

PlatinumRedux · #26 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by species8472

HD-DVD uses VC-1 ONLY. The entire HD-DVD camp was on the same page at launch. There are no MPEG2 or MPEG4 HD-DVD titles. Blu-Ray camp does not use VC-1. As I mentioned earlier, the VC-1 codec is more efficient and does not require a HIGH bitrate to achieve maximum visual quality thus there is no need for 50GB (BTW: 51 HD-DVD disks are ready and were shown at CES) and ridiculously high BITRATES. Blu-Ray (MPEG2 and MPEG4) MUST use a higher bitrate as they have high noise (SNR) - noise is bad, you realize that?. Using the higher bitrate helps to eliminate the noise, something VC-1 does not have to worry about. In fact, Sony tried increasing MPEG2 to 30+ Mbps last year and it still could not match VC-1 so they had no choice but to use MPEG4 (starting in late fall - see my Riddick vs XMEN - XMEN uses MPEG4 AVC). Sony will NOT use VC-1 because Microsoft helped champion the technology.

*sigh* Have you been living in a cave? First of all, VC-1 and AVC share so much of the same technologies, they are like kissing cousins. Practically the same codecs with different names. Secondly, to say that Blu-ray does not use VC-1 is absolutely false, all three codecs are in the specification. You need to look it up. Here's a list of VC-1 titles available on Blu-ray:

Deja Vu
The Ant Bully
Blazing Saddles
Blood Diamond
Bullit
Cassanova (2005)
The Departed
Corpse Bride
Dog Day Afternoon
Flight Plan
Goodfellas
Happy Feet
House of Wax
Ladder 49
Lady in the Water
Lethal Weapon
Lethal Weapon 2
Letters from Iwo Jima
Million Dollar Baby
Nine Inch Nails Live: Beside You in Time
Planet Earth

And your assertion that VC-1 doesn't require higher bitrates to look good is a false one. Take any of those low bitrate encodings from Warner from that list, and they look like rubbish - soft, artifact laden, banding, you name it - compared to, say Deja Vu, which uses VC-1, averages near 19Mb/s bitrate but PEAKS at 40Mb/s and looks WAY better than any of the bit starved VC-1 encodings from Warner, and the same goes for any AVC encoding as well.

Quote:

Most of the Blu-Ray camp follows Sony example but WB will release 300 on both formats using VC-1 but Blu-Ray version will not have any "In-Movie Experience or Internet Features". TrueHD is supported on both but the PS3 does not decode and "output" TrueHD and very few Blu-Ray hardware players support the feature since the feature is NOT mandatory. TrueHD gives you an audio track that is bit for bit identical to the original. I suggest doing some REAL comparisons as I do.

Let's inject some facts into this shall we? HD-DVD only requires mandatory decoding of TrueHD 2.0 on its players, which is useless for movies - that's right, 2.0. Secondly, your assertion that the PS3 does not decode TrueHD is false. The PS3 decodes TrueHD and outputs it as PCM over HDMI in either multichannel or stereo or over its analogue outs in stereo. Also, the Panasonic DMP-BD10 and BD10A, Sony BDP-S1 and Pioneer Elite BDP HD1 Blu-ray players all decode TrueHD and output it as PCM over both HDMI and analogue multichannel outs. In the case of the Panasonic players, not only are they the only players of either format to have 7.1 analogue outputs instead of only 5.1, but they are also the only ones to also decode DTS-HD HR - are there any HD-DVD players that do that? Answer - no.

Some more facts. TrueHD (and DTS-HD MA for that matter) are just lossless audio codecs. All they do is take a PCM audio source and compress it losslessly to fit into a smaller space and use up less bandwidth - a real must for HD-DVD with its limited disc space and limited bandwidth. But, guess what? Every Blu-ray player is capable of playing uncompressed PCM at up to 192/24 resolution at 5.1 (8Mb/s dedicated to the audio ALONE, remember?) without even affecting the PQ - something HD-DVD certainly cannot do. So, TrueHD and DTS-HD are not something superior to PCM - they are seeded by PCM. Blu-ray has more titles with uncompressed PCM soundtracks than HD-DVD even has titles with TrueHD PLUS it has titles with TrueHD - which upon decompression is just a bit-for-bit copy of an uncompressed PCM source ANYWAY. So, which format has the audio advantage again?

As for interactivity, PiP doesn't appeal to me, so I don't give a crap about 300, but Mandatory Profile 1.1 (which addresses secondary audio and video streams in Blu-ray hardware) takes effect 1 Nov 2007. Players are already on the market that can and will be upgraded via firmware to do these very things - the PS3 being one of them - with more on the way. Besides, BD-J has been here from the beginning, and can offer loads of interactivity far more compelling than some annoying PiP screen.( It should also be noted that when Blu-ray moves to Profile 1.1, its secondary video stream will be a mandatory 1080p, not the 480i/p PiP rubbish that HD-DVD supports.) See The Pirates of the Caribbean movies, or the Dragon's Lair disc which was written entirely in BD-J or better yet, see this, coming Nov 6 to a Blockbuster near you:

Quote:

Hollywood In Hi-Def

"Cars" will debut in Blu on Nov. 6, according to a Disney exec with whom I was just chatting.
This sounds like it will be a pretty special Blu-ray Disc release with director John Lasseter taking a very hands-on approach to every nuance of the entire Blu-ray edition from the transfer to the Blu bonus features (in addition to all the extras from last year's DVD).
The coolest-sounding BD extra is maybe the most elaborate BD-J interactivity yet called "Car Finder," allowing users to search for the more than 200 different cars featured in the movie and even race the clock to find a specific car in a frozen frame of film. Details of the makes and models of each car will also be accessible. (Sounds like a feature devised by reported car-nut Lasseter, doesn't it?)
All the featurettes and audio commentaries of the DVD, plus a previously unreleased Traffic School scene, are presented in a "Cinemavision" dashboard interface that allows users to view them any way they want, popping up during relevant parts of the movie or stand-alone.
Several of the shorts on the original DVD will be in hi-def on the Blu-ray version, which, by the way, I'm told is encoded in AVC.
And Disney is pricing it at $34.99 suggested retail, only $5 higher than last year's DVD edition. That DVD version was the big winner last night at the Entertainment Merchants Association's Home Media Expo in Las Vegas with three Home Entertainment Awards -- family, children's and sell-through title of the year.
Disney already reported yesterday (see my Tuesday blog) that they will be offering demos and hands-on play of the "Cars" bonus features at their 18-city road show tour of malls starting soon, so maybe some of you can feed us your early first-hand reports about the bonus features!

Sounds pretty darned interactive to me.

Quote:

Name one positive thing about Blu-Ray (except 50GB Capacity)?

L8

I think I just named a lot more than just one.

species8472 · #27 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 11:09 PM

Do you guys want a forum for your reviews? I can create a user review area. Let me know..

species8472 · #28 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlatinumRedux

*sigh* Have you been living in a cave? First of all, VC-1 and AVC share so much of the same technologies, they are like kissing cousins. Practically the same codecs with different names. Secondly, to say that Blu-ray does not use VC-1 is absolutely false, all three codecs are in the specification. You need to look it up. Here's a list of VC-1 titles available on Blu-ray:

Deja Vu
The Ant Bully
Blazing Saddles
Blood Diamond
Bullit
Cassanova (2005)
The Departed
Corpse Bride
Dog Day Afternoon
Flight Plan
Goodfellas
Happy Feet
House of Wax
Ladder 49
Lady in the Water
Lethal Weapon
Lethal Weapon 2
Letters from Iwo Jima
Million Dollar Baby
Nine Inch Nails Live: Beside You in Time
Planet Earth

And your assertion that VC-1 doesn't require higher bitrates to look good is a false one. Take any of those low bitrate encodings from Warner from that list, and they look like rubbish - soft, artifact laden, banding, you name it - compared to, say Deja Vu, which uses VC-1, averages near 19Mb/s bitrate but PEAKS at 40Mb/s and looks WAY better than any of the bit starved VC-1 encodings from Warner, and the same goes for any AVC encoding as well.

Let's inject some facts into this shall we? HD-DVD only requires mandatory decoding of TrueHD 2.0 on its players, which is useless for movies - that's right, 2.0. Secondly, your assertion that the PS3 does not decode TrueHD is false. The PS3 decodes TrueHD and outputs it as PCM over HDMI in either multichannel or stereo or over its analogue outs in stereo. Also, the Panasonic DMP-BD10 and BD10A, Sony BDP-S1 and Pioneer Elite BDP HD1 Blu-ray players all decode TrueHD and output it as PCM over both HDMI and analogue multichannel outs. In the case of the Panasonic players, not only are they the only players of either format to have 7.1 analogue outputs instead of only 5.1, but they are also the only ones to also decode DTS-HD HR - are there any HD-DVD players that do that? Answer - no.

Some more facts. TrueHD (and DTS-HD MA for that matter) are just lossless audio codecs. All they do is take a PCM audio source and compress it losslessly to fit into a smaller space and use up less bandwidth - a real must for HD-DVD with its limited disc space and limited bandwidth. But, guess what? Every Blu-ray player is capable of playing uncompressed PCM at up to 192/24 resolution at 5.1 (8Mb/s dedicated to the audio ALONE, remember?) without even affecting the PQ - something HD-DVD certainly cannot do. So, TrueHD and DTS-HD are not something superior to PCM - they are seeded by PCM. Blu-ray has more titles with uncompressed PCM soundtracks than HD-DVD even has titles with TrueHD PLUS it has titles with TrueHD - which upon decompression is just a bit-for-bit copy of an uncompressed PCM source ANYWAY. So, which format has the audio advantage again?

As for interactivity, PiP doesn't appeal to me, so I don't give a crap about 300, but Mandatory Profile 1.1 (which addresses secondary audio and video streams in Blu-ray hardware) takes effect 1 Nov 2007. Players are already on the market that can and will be upgraded via firmware to do these very things - the PS3 being one of them - with more on the way. Besides, BD-J has been here from the beginning, and can offer loads of interactivity far more compelling than some annoying PiP screen.( It should also be noted that when Blu-ray moves to Profile 1.1, its secondary video stream will be a mandatory 1080p, not the 480i/p PiP rubbish that HD-DVD supports.) See The Pirates of the Caribbean movies, or the Dragon's Lair disc which was written entirely in BD-J or better yet, see this, coming Nov 6 to a Blockbuster near you:

Sounds pretty darned interactive to me.

I think I just named a lot more than just one.

Yes, you are correct some recent titles are VC-1 encoded, that is my mistake (as I was making a bit of a blanket statement).. Most are recent and many are Warner Bros who knows better and supports HD-DVD more than Blu-Ray. We all know the spec supports all 3 video codecs and also similar audio codecs, that is no mystery at all.

As for Interactive, a Disney title or two does not count (I am taking real movies not the kid stuff). How many Blu-Ray titles are available and how many support BD-J? Not every many at all. It minus well be NOTHING, seriously. The point is the feature is not wide spread because the group was late in defining the spec for BD-J. Since last fall a large majority of HD-DVD titles have supported the feature where BD is catching up.

Ethernet ports are not mandatory. How many have them? Not all, just a few. Without an Ethernet port, no Internet Activties and no automatic updates. The port should have been standard right away with Persistent storage.

The PS3 TrueHD support is decoded in Software (like the 360) which is similar to what PowerDVD does. The difference between software and hardware multichannel support is huge. The multichannel output of the PS3 is weak and not what I consider Good. The 360 HD-DVD does not support TrueHD output and only decodes (which disappointed everyone). HD-DVD can deal with PCM Uncompressed audio just fine. The point is most BD does not support TrueHD until recently. Even Sony's flagship Casino Royale had no TrueHD, just uncompressed audio which was bass heavy and not much better than other compressed codecs. I am aware of many titles being coded for BD-J and the reason why they are coming this fall is because they need to wait for more players with support. The final spec will be done in Oct which is still a few months away. Of course I know decoded tracks are output in PCM Uncompressed (which is why the 360 Elite does not support TrueHD output - it cannot output uncompressed audio). Earlier I was referring to the support for the TrueHD Tracks not now the audio is output (Uncompressed).

The Toshiba Players were upgraded to decode TrueHD in 5.1 instead of 2 channel quite a while ago. The TrueHD output is Uncompressed Multichannel Audio same as the Blu-Ray Hardware players. This was the case (only 2 channel) at launch and but not since last fall. 7.1 TrueHD support is not really needed but would be nice.

You mentioned another average movie in Deja Vu. Batman Begins, The Matrix and Riddick are all encode in similar bitrates and look great at 20GB or so. High Bitrates are not needed, that is an illusion regardless of what you or others say or think (Especially sources that take advertising dollars from the same group they are promoting). They are biased. I suggest you take the best of the best and compare for yourself, not the best of Blu-Ray vs the worst of HD-DVD.

And AVC and VC-1 more different and then alike (much). In fact, I am working on an article with the VC-1 development engineers regarding the codecs superiority. The article will go live in a few weeks. VC-1 engineers will feel much different and will be insulted at your claim of similarities between the two.

Obviously your vision is failing (I am kidding) you if you believe MPEG4 encoded material actually looks better than VC-1 encoded stuff (regardless of the media the content is placed on - HD-
DVD or Blu-Ray disk). MPEG2 and MPEG4 are both aging technologies.

Why support a format that could not get it right the first time?

Anyway, it is nice to bump heads with you.. I need to handle some things in my real job so I can go home.

mischa316 · #29 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by species8472

BTW: I see you purchase a crap load of movies like me (games too), NICE!

Here are all the movies I have!! I just had to put them vertical!! They were taking up too much room the other way!! I also have netflix as well so one's I'm iffy about I will rent. Like Mystery Men I"m glad I rented that one since it looked like crap. It was so grainy I was ticked since I like the movie. Yesterday I watched G.I. Jane that was grainy as hell as well I was like what is the sense of putting out HD material if it's not going to look close to perfect!! Tomb Raider was another one very grainy absolutely horrible!!

That's my take!!

species8472 · #30 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mischa316

Here are all the movies I have!! I just had to put them vertical!! They were taking up too much room the other way!! I also have netflix as well so one's I'm iffy about I will rent. Like Mystery Men I"m glad I rented that one since it looked like crap. It was so grainy I was ticked since I like the movie. Yesterday I watched G.I. Jane that was grainy as hell as well I was like what is the sense of putting out HD material if it's not going to look close to perfect!! Tomb Raider was another one very grainy absolutely horrible!!

That's my take!!

Nice collection.

I hear ya.. Some movies are poorly done regardless of format. XMEN MPEG4 was bad and I was shocked. The cable broadcast is almost better..

I am pretty picky about movies I get. I try to buy movies that are done in the last few year because everyone else HD Camera for production. Older movies can be hit or miss. The Matrix was a surprise as the movie was filmed in 98 before HD camera became the norm for production.

L8

View Poll Results: Which format do you prefer?
Blu-Ray	15	44.12%
HD-DVD	16	47.06%
Both	2	5.88%
Neither	1	2.94%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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